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Verwendung des Background-/Skillsystems: Beispiel

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Lasercleric:
Hier ein mE sehr lesenswerter x-post vom messageboard somewthingawful.com zum Thema, wie das Backgroundsystems eigentlich im Spiel verwendet werden soll. Der Post ist insbesondere für diejenigen interessant, die sich vor "Batman"-Backgrounds fürchten - also Backgrounds die im Wesentlichen alles oder vermeintlich alles mögliche abdecken. Der Beitrag zeigt mE vollkommen zutreffend auf, dass dies zumindest bei dem von 13th Age implizierten bzw. propagiertem Spielstil vollkommen egal ist.

(Klicke zum Anzeigen/Verstecken)Right, so one repeating meme regarding 13th age is that the background system means some powerful backgrounds, like, say, "Batman +5," are universally applicable, while other backgrounds, like "Beach Volleyball +5," are not. We can argue all day about how Beach Volleyball experience can be surprisingly useful in a variety of situations, but it's basically irrefutable that Batman is useful in more of them, and the few gaps in batmanning can be made up for with the character's other background, "Billionaire Playboy +3." This is considered a bad thing.

But "Fail Forwards" skill use (Page reference: 42) means that being more likely to succeed is not advantageous.

Let's look at two theoretical parties. The first stars alpha player Wruce Bwane, who had the backgrounds, "Batman +5" and "Billionaire Playboy +3," is part of a team of PCs who all have similarly justice league themed backgrounds. They have powerful, universally applicable backgrounds that synergize well with their stats. The second team's alpha player is Kele the Bird, an elf who used to be a bird, who has the backgrounds "Bird +5," "Fortune loves an Idiot +1," and "Slept through his monastic training +2." He's good at perching on objects and cheating on tests and not much else--while you could say his background as a wild animal makes him perceptive he doesn't have a high wisdom so at the table there's not much he actually rolls a high number for. The rest of his party are musicians, chumps, and drunks. They are given similar premises for adventure.

Wruce Bwane is very concerned that the Police Commissioner's daughter has been captured. By rolling Batman he finds the discarded crossbow bolt---most of them had been retrieved, but the head of one had broken off in a floorboard. His wizard buddy, the Emerald Lantern, uses his broadly defined arcane abilities to find the original forge the crossbow head was made in. It's in the private forge of the Badwrongfun Estate, a troublesome aristocratic family with a small army of guards and a ball later tonight. Fortunately a successful "Billionaire Playboy" roll gets Wruce and his personal servants invitations to the ball. Inside a few successful rolls (and one notable failure) gets them inside and in the basement, but tips off the head of security, who jumps the party in the basement, in a dramatic level 2 scuffle where everyone themes their actions to be as quiet as possible, occasionally making rolls to dive across the room and catch a falling vase so as not to disturb the party upstairs.

Kele the Bird is very concerned that the Police Commissioner's daughter was stolen by grackles, even though the commissioner says no one knows who kidnapped her--it's always grackles! You can't trust them. He rolls against Bird to find the nearest Grackle Triad, which is apparently a thing that exists, and the GM says it's in the Badwrongfun Estate, a troublesome aristocratic family with a small army of guards and a ball later tonight. One of his allies tries to get them jobs in the catering group, but after getting in the party quickly flubs a series of catering related checks and are escorted to the back door to get thrown out on their asses. Furious, Kele knocks out the chefs as "miserable grackle allies" and the party is quickly set upon a group of house guards. A level 2 scuffle erupts, where everyone modifies their actions to toss guards into pots or to upend cakes on their heads.

Meanwhile, Wruce Bwane finishes his fight--because they were silent, no other guards come running. In fact, no one knows there's trouble until he dangles the head of security out of an attic window with a rope tied around his foot and demands to know just what Lord Badwrongfun has to do with it. The guards say they had nothing to do with it--the crossbow bolt was probably taken by those lycanthrope bandits which attacked last week, a scurrilous bunch. A party member uses her background as an Amazon Princess to magically determine that the guards are telling the truth, and that the Badwrongfun Estate was not directly involved. Wruce leaves the head of security dangling out the window to draw attention as his team escapes out the window. A few Batman checks later and they've shaken down the local thugs and found out the gang of terrifying were-creatures is lurking in an abandoned temple. An icon roll of the priestess means the party knows a secret tunnel in and they ambush the creatures after spying on a ritual--some sort of foul prayer to a giant, monstrous, shapeshifting demiurge. And there's the captured daughter, on the dias and about to be sacrificed! The party leaps from the shadows and attacks. It's a desperate struggle against a level 3 fight, a series of fights against humanoids, each of whom turns into a different kind of animal! There's plenty of ritual urns to upturn and magical effects to accidentally trigger as they fight.

Kele the Bird and company wins the fight against the guard, but dozens more of them are totes coming! The party runs for it, using their goofy backgrounds to blunder through the city streets, making "Drunk" rolls to burst through breweries, a negative relationship with the Elf Queen to steal an elvish horse from those asshole elvish merchants, and a roll of "Arcane College Dropout" to quickly join and blend into a game of hackey-sack. Burning with fury, Kele starts talking with the birds around time, using his background to find out just what the grackles are up to. As per tradition, the GM gives the rest of the party no indication that Kele can (or can't) talk to birds, but people see him talking to animals and assume he's one of those dangerous lycanthropes. Word gets back to the thieves, and they investigate the new, unaffiliated were-bird. They approach the party, are disheartened to learn none of them are lyanthropes, and try to kill them to keep their secret. It's a desperate struggle against a level 3 fight, a series of fights against humanoids, each of whom turns into a different kind of animal! It's a ugly, messy fight in the muddy back alleys of the city, with a break every two rounds (lowering the escalation die each break) as everyone leans against a wall and whistles innocently whenever the city guard walk past.

Back to Wruce Bwane, who corners the last remaining lycanthrope, a were-snake shaman. The shaman whips out a sacrificial knife and plunges it into his own chest--they may have stopped the ritual, but dark lord Horribus Unpronouncibliliux will arise nevertheless! The building crumbles as a huge shadowy presence bursts up from the ground, sundering walls as it grows. The party moves quickly to use their skills to evacuate the surrounding neighborhood, saving the lives of countless poor or dispossessed citizens before the monster solidifies into a terrifying mass of flesh and claw. It's time for the final showdown against a triple strength monster and his two remaining lycanthrope minions, and every round the demon turns into a different form, with different defenses, attacks, and special qualities. Can the party stay focused and execute a plan with the combat being completely different each round!? The city is at stake!

Kele the Bird is enjoying considerably less success. They've fought off the lycanthropes, but a few escape. Chasing them, the party finds itself outside a small building, an abandoned church completely haunted by an enormous flock of grackles. Is this the source of the evil? The party makes a few rolls to try to sneak up on the building without attracting the attention of any avian foes, but their attempt is abruptly stopped when the building crumbles as a huge shadowy presence bursts up from the ground, sundering walls as it grows. The party moves quickly to use their skills to evacuate the surrounding neighborhood, saving the lives of countless poor or dispossessed citizens before the monster solidifies into a terrifying mass of flesh and claw. It's dark lord Horribus Unpronouncibliliux, dark lord of the grackles! It's time for the final showdown against a triple strength monster and his two remaining lycanthrope minions, and every round the demon turns into a different form, with different defenses, attacks, and special qualities. Can the party stay focused and execute a plan with the combat being completely different each round!? The city is at stake!

Wruce Bwane and company defeats the were-demon, saving the girl and the city. He and his allies return to the captain of the guard in triumph, return the daughter to her loving father, and are buried in praise. They are given a level appropriate treasure with a quirk themed to the city guard and the key to the city. Everyone is super impressed with them because they're so rad and awesome.

Kele the Bird and company defeats the grackle lord, saving the city. They find a level appropriate challenge in the claws of one of the lycanthrope minions of the grackle lord, presumably the leader of the foul grackle cult. It has some kind of wild beast quirk to it. Returning to the commissioner in triumph, they announce proudly that the Grackles have been defeated, one and all. "And my daughter?" the commisioner says, worried.

"Oh, right, her." Kele looks sad. "I think grackles ate her!"

"Get the hell out of my office."



So we've got two parties. One of them passed nearly every background check with awesome backgrounds that do a lot, and one failed nearly every check with terrible background bad at nearly everything, and yet each of them had a level 2 fight, a level 3 fight, a level 3 fight with unusually few monsers, and a single treasure drop. The only real difference is that the player playing Batman went around looking cool and doing cool things, while the player playing a Bird went around looking dumb and doing goofy things. And a player who plays batman probably wants to look cool, and a player playing a bird probably wants to do goofy things. Which means the background mechanics are working as intended, and that players are empowered to choose the game they want to play.


There's only two questions left.

Is my background too powerful or useful? Only if it annoys the other players.

Is my background too weak or useless? Only if it annoys the other players.

Mapugnar:
Jetzt weiß ich zumindest, warum ich das Background-System als Schrott empfinde.

Mal davon abgesehen wage ich die Behauptung, dass +5 bei weitem nicht die Welt sind und zu so klaren Unterschieden zwischen den beiden Helden führen.

Lasercleric:

--- Zitat von: Mapugnar am 29.09.2015 | 15:20 ---Jetzt weiß ich zumindest, warum ich das Background-System als Schrott empfinde.
Mal davon abgesehen wage ich die Behauptung, dass +5 bei weitem nicht die Welt sind und zu so klaren Unterschieden zwischen den beiden Helden führen.

--- Ende Zitat ---

Deine Behauptung geht doch am Beispiel vorbei - es nimmt schlichtweg an, dass Bird mit schmaleren Backgrounds bei den Skillchecks regelmäßig daneben haut, um zu zeigen, dass die Anwendungsbreite des Backgrounds und Erfolge bei Skillchecks für den von 13th Age implizierten Spielstil (Fail Forward!) erstmal egal sind. Die Backgrounds geben nur die Themen, Richtung und die Mittel vor, anhand derer die Story gemeinsam improvisatorisch weitergesponnen wird. Daher wird die Story bei Bird eher gonzo und whacky - was aber möglicherweise genau das ist, was der Spieler durch Wahl dieser Hintergründe am Spieltisch erleben wollte (das gilt übrigens hinsichtlich Batman andersherum genauso).

Bei dieser Verwendung der Backgrounds, bekommen die Spieler eben die Möglichkeit, auf erzählerische Weise exakt den Charakter außerhalb des Kampfes zu spielen, der Ihnen vorschwebt. In rigideren Skillsystemen der 3er und 4er D&D-Generation müsste man da erst mühevoll aus Skills und Feats das richtige zusammen basteln.

Ich kann verstehen, dass Du einfach den Spielstil als Schrott empfindest. Der ist tatsächlich und verständlicherweise nicht jedermanns Sache, weil er sich sehr weit von D&D der letzten 15 Jahre entfernt.

Dies lässt sich aber leicht beheben, auch wenn man dann dem Spiel erzählerische Flexibilität und improvisatorischen input raubt: Backgrounds klarer definieren, Fail Forward rauswerfen.

Scimi:
Ich habe jetzt im dritten Anlauf geschafft, den Text zu lesen. Guter Fund  :d aber ich finde die Beispiele extrem ausschweifend und wenig griffig. Grundsätzlich wird allerdings etwas beschrieben, was ich an 13th Age sehr schätze: Werte können dazu benutzt werden, die Eigenarten eines Charakters zu beschreiben, bestimmen aber nicht darüber, wieviel Spiel der Charakter erhält/erzeugt. Und wenn das System nicht oder schlecht optimierte Charaktere nicht bestraft, indem es sie von bestimmten Spielelementen ausschließt, bietet das einen Anreiz für eine größere Vielfalt von Charakterideen.

Ist bestimmt auch ein Grund, warum ich mit D&D vor 13th Age nie richtig warm geworden bin - die typischen D&D-Charaktere reizen mich einfach nicht und die für mich reizvollen Charaktere sind mit dem System schwer zu bauen.

Selganor [n/a]:
Dieser Text hat mir dann auch als ich die neue Guardians of the Galaxy-Serie geschaut habe (Anfangsszene beim Einbruch in den Knast) nochmal auf den Trichter gebracht, dass die Backgrounds in 13th Age ja nicht zwangslaeufig "Skills" sind sondern alles moegliche andere auch darstellen koennen: Kontakte (z.B. andere Soeldner die man als "Ex-Soeldner" noch kennen kann), "One-Shot-Ausruestung" (z.B. "Kletterapperat" den man als "Fuer jeden Fall ausgeruesteter Gadgeteer" haben kann) usw.

Kann auch durchaus sein, dass gerade DAS bei Leuten die lieber konkretere (und feiner aufgegliederte) Skills (in denen man sich auch noch einzeln verbessern kann um sich genau auf was zu "spezialisieren") nicht so gut ankommt...

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