Zum einen möchte ich auf diese beiden Threads im Pinnacle-Forum verweisen:
http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=269701&highlight=mounted+combat#269701Seeing as mounted warriors have historically dominated the battlefield, what additional rules are there for riding a horse/mammoth/elk etc...?
I know that the Fighting skill is limited by the Riding skill, and that any missile fire suffers a -2 penalty, but what advantages does a mounted warrior get apart from being able to move faster?
My thoughts were that the mount's Strength can be used in a lance charge, but that's about it. Shouldn't they get a bonus to attack or parry when fighting non-mounted troops?
Well, as noted on page 97 of SWEX, a mounted character can Charge for +4 damage. In addition, keep in mind that the mount counts as an ally when fighting an adjacent foe, providing a Gang Up bonus to attack.
Also, it would not be out of line to apply the vehicle rule where each 10" of movement applies a -1 penalty to hit, so using the movement of the horse in a round (10" or more) could make the rider harder to hit.
und:
http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=159196&highlight=mounted+combat#159196- The cavalry unit's charge moves their mount's Pace 8" and, if they are in a hurry, adding the Running Die for the mount. Is here a MAP for Running applied to the Fighting roll of the rider?
Hmm, nope, I'd say it'd just affect the horse. However, it's possible that the GM could require a Riding roll in order to get the horse to run, which could count as an action for the rider. But I wouldn't think so to get a trained combat mount to charge.
- At least 6" in straight line are required to apply the damage bonus of +4 for a Charge. How will the movement of a charging cavalry unit be applied in the case, that the cavalry unit has movement of 16" (due to Running Die of the mount), but will meet the enemy lines right after the first 6" to 8"? The movement would most likely carry the cavalry unit TROUGH the footsoldier unit (8" to 10" deep). Or does the movement have to stop after the first contact with the enemy?
It's like any character's movement; they choose what they are going to do. But they face the consequences as well. If they leave close combat with a non-Shaken opponent, they'll suffer a free attack.
- In the combat round the first cavalry minis reach the opposed footsoldiers the cavalry troops, having Lances (STR+4 damage, AP 1) and Improved Frenzy may make two attacks (due to Improved Frenzy) with their Lance. Does the Charge damage bonus of +4 apply to both Fighting dice?
I'd say if they have the Edges, they get the effect.
- If the charging cavalry troops would like to use Wild Attack, does this add to the Charge damage bonus? Would this reduce the Parry of the rider or the rider AND the mount?
It would reduce the Parry of the rider.
- The rider attacking with a Lance (Reach 2") will attack first, the movement does carry the mount with it's rider further to the enemy. In closing to the ranks of footsoldiers the mount can attack (if a trained warhorse or such aggressive mounts) using the Ganging Up bonus of +1. If the mount was Running into this charge, does the MAP for Running have to be applied on the Fighting roll of the mount? (I think, yes. The mount has been running so -2 MAP, but it also gets the +1 Ganging Up bonus for "ganging up" with it's rider.)
Yes, if the mount is Running, then it suffers the MAP for doing so.
- If the footsoldier were on Hold, in the moment of contact they may try to interrupt the action of the cavalry troops. Agility vs. Agility is rolled, adding +2 for every point of Reach. So the cavalry troops add +4 for their Reach 2" Lances, and the footsoldiers +2 for their Reach 1" Spears. Who ever wins, gets the +4 Charge damage bonus for his attacks that succeed. - What about First Strike? If the footsoldiers have First Strike, does this apply the moment, when (as noted above) the mount (and the rider) get into Close Combat range? So the footsoldiers (if they win the Agility roll) may make a Fighting attack with +4 damage bonus for setting vs. Charge at Reach. Then the charging cavalry troop makes their Fighting attack without the Charge damage bonus at Reach. Then the mount moves closer (and might attack too) coming into First Strike range, where the footsoldiers make another Fighting roll.
Looks dead on.
- If a rider or the mount gets Shaken or Wounded (WC only, because Extras are out of fight by their first wound), the rider must make a Riding roll to keep his mount under control. - How should a TRAINED horse be handled, that receives a Shaken result while running in a close formation of 40 heavy cavalry troops? Normally the Shaken figure could only move half Pace and perform no action. An untrained horse would try to flee the scene in a randomly determined direction (as per the rules for mounted combat), but how about a trained warhorse?
They simply don't flee if Shaken. If the rider is still on, he'd have "control," but the mount would still be Shaken. If the rider fell off, the mount would probably just stop where he is at and remain neat his rider. Depends on the situation really. It just simply isn't going to bolt when Shaken like an untrained mount.
- Still on the Shaken mount question: The running die in the example of a Charge vs. footmen on Hold was thrown before the attack by a footsoldier causing the Shaken result was made. So the whole cavalry unit would move normally it's full Pace + Running Die. Does the Shaken horse keep the momentum and therefore keeps Pace in the unit? A Riding roll decides, whether the horse might loose balance and falls down (possibly throwing the rider out of the saddle). If the Riding roll was made, I'd guess the horse will keep the Pace of the other horses in the unit.
To clarify, the Riding roll just determines if the rider falls off the animal; there's nothing about the mount "falling down" if Shaken.
Regardless, Shaken does not change the way it works. A Shaken character can only move half their normal Pace. If they have been interrupted and Shaken after moving more than half their Pace, then they stop where they were Shaken.
In this case, it be easy enough to say the horse rears back from the attack. It certainly can't keep pace with non-Shaken horses.
- A failed attack on the rider or the mount uses the Innocent Bystander rule, possibly hitting the mount or the rider, respectively. If a footman attacks directly the horse, is the Parry of the horse to be used, or the Parry of the rider? (I remember in Sidney Anglo's Fencing Manual for the London and Westminster Light Horse Volunteers lessons how to protect the horse from direct attacks by opposed troops. - So it seems plausible to use the Parry of the rider for his mount as long as it's rider is not incapacitated or the horse is riderless. Rider and mount are trained to fight as a unit, I guess.)
Again, just to clarify, it's not any "attack" that would use the Innocent Bystander rule, but a shot at them since Innocent Bystander applies to ranged attacks and not typically Fighting attacks.
Still, if the attacker targets the horse, they face the horse's Parry.
A lesson in how to protect the horse sounds like an Edge.
- Riding the mount, changing directions, causing it to attack is NOT an action that causes a MAP for the rider. (No Riding roll required. Essentially a Free Action.) Only a move that requires a Riding roll will cause a MAP for the rider (such as jumping over a fence or riding a horse that is still Shaken.)
Pretty much.
- Does the Command Edge, which gives a bonus to recover from Shaken, also apply to the mounts of the troops under Command?
Nope. Leadership Edges do not typically apply to creatures with Animal level intelligence.
Though the GM could allow a character to versions of those Edges that applied only to Animal level intelligence NPCs.
- Now my greatest concern: Riding footsoldiers down. - If the cavalry unit has the initiative vs. the footsoldiers, the whole unit is expected to crash through the footmen without ever slowing down. - If I use the Collision rules the damage of a collision with a horse moving 16" (Pace + Running Die) is 3d6 (1d6 for every 5" Pace of the moving "vehicle"). The opponent is a "soft" target, so that the horse only gets half damage. (The horses have SIZ+3 and Barding - so I assume, they are harder than a footman of average weight with Leather Armor and Shield.) - I guess the footman gets his Agility roll vs. the forward moving mount to jump aside or get trampled (for 3d6 damage at movement 16"). - I further guess that in the following rows the footmen also have to make Agility rolls to avoid being trampled.
One big problem is using the vehicle collision rules for characters. While a horse can be ridden, it's still a character and not a vehicle.
Simply treat it just like any other character trying to break through the line. They take their movement, make a Fighting attack, and continue their movement. The issue is going to be that free attack for leaving Close Combat (not to mention the frightening aspect of them all having First Strike).
One advantage from the "vehicle rules" that I would apply is the penalty for speed. If the horses are running at 10"+ of movement, I'd give the attackers a -1 penalty to hit them.
That said, considering Gang Up bonuses once inside the line, the calvary better be pretty darn tough. Though tactically, they do have an advantage with the V-formation as long as they use it. Once the point hits the line, the units to the side should move in to open a hole or use the hole to get through to the other side. If they just ride head-on, they're actually weakening their position.
Mir kommt es so vor als wäre der Angriff des Pferdes selbst (Streitrösser mit W8 Kämpfen) ein wichtiges Argument um überhaupt beritten in den Kampf zu gehen (ansonsten überwiegen die Nachteile imho meistens die Vorteile).
NUR Streitrösser greifen überhaupt direkt an!
Und trotzdem ist es SINNVOLL und eine gute Taktik auch mit leichter Reiterei in den Kampf zu ziehen, deren Pferde NICHT das Nahkampftraining eines Streitrosses aufweisen.
Mobilität, Überzahl, Reichweite, MASSE und WUCHT machen hier einige der Vorteile aus, die auch im Regelwerk umgesetzt sind.
Man sollte sich das vielleicht auch nicht so seltsam vorstellen, dass das Pferd mit seinen Hufen bewusst auf einen Gegner tritt, sondern, dass der Pferdeangriff einfach das klassische "Überreiten" darstellt. Das macht es für mich zumindest einfacher sich das sinnvoll vorzustellen und gleichzeitig wird eben jenes wichtige "Überreiten" berücksichtigt.
Zum Niederreiten siehe oben meine Frage zur Umsetzung mit den Kollisions-Regeln.
Aber: Wer schon einmal die Spanische Hofreitschule gesehen hat, er WEISS, was für Kampfmanöver, Sprungtritte nach hinten, Ducken des Kopfes, Tritt nach vorne, Tritt im Kreis um sich (wie Sweep!), und dergleichen mehr ein Pferd drauf haben kann. - Ein Streitross ist genau auf solche Kampftechniken trainiert. Dabei machen sich die Trainer die natürlichen Meidbewegungen und Angriffsbewegungen von Pferden, die sich untereinander kabbeln zu Nutze. - Diese trainierte Tiere sind GEFÄHRLICH - und zwar anders als in den SW-Regeln auch nach hinten und zur Seite. Vor allem ist so ein doppelter Sprungtritt nach hinten VERDAMMT SCHNELL! Und das mit einer Muskelmasse, die Pferde samt Reiter erst einmal in die LUFT katapultieren kann! Da finde ich die Stärke-Werte für einen Pferdetritt in SW schon ziemlich niedrig angesetzt.
Soweit so gut, aber wann können Pferde nun angreifen?
In jeder Runde ihres Reiters?
Ja.
Multiaktionsabzug vermutlich nur wenn das Pferd in der gleichen Runde auch gerannt ist?
Für das Pferd - nicht unbedingt für den Reiter. Und eben auch nur, wenn das Pferd einen normalen Angriff vornimmt. Das Pferd könnte natürlich den Abzug durch eine Wild Attack beim Niedertrampeln wettmachen. Dann würde es mit Pace 10 + d8 herangestürmt kommen, macht einen Angriff mit +2 - 2 = +/- 0 und +2 Schaden gegen den Fußsoldaten, und dessen Kumpels könnten dann versuchen das Pferd mit -1 (Geschwindigkeit) zu Treffen, aber gegen die Parry -2 des Pferdes wegen der Wild Attack.
Beim Streitross steht dabei "Im Kampf greift das Tier in jeder Runde an, in der sein Reiter kein Reiterkampf-Manöver irgendeiner Art durchführt.".
Was sind nun Reiterkampfmanöver?
Sprung über einen Zaun, Trick-Manöver, um gegnerische Reiter Angeschlagen zu bekommen, oder sie "auszureiten", um ihnen einen Stich mit der Ulanen-Lanze oder einen Säbelhieb zu verpassen, das Pferd dazu bringen in ein Gebäude hinein zu reiten, das Pferd sich gegen gegnerischen Beschuß dazu bringen, sich hinzulegen, so daß man durch das Pferd mittlere bis volle Deckung bekommt (das Pferd bekommt dann natürlich die Kugeln der Gegner ab!), usw.
Ein Angriff mit dem Schwert?
Ist immer möglich. - Jeweils mit dem kleineren Würfel von Reiten und Kämpfen.
Ein Sturmangriff mit der Lanze?
Ist nicht immer möglich, weil man dazu mindestens 6" geradlinige Bewegung braucht. Meist im Anreiten auf eine gegnerische Truppe machbar, aber auch beim Manövrieren in der aufgelösten Reiterschlacht, sobald man seine gerade Linie auf einen der Feinde sieht, kann man sein Pferd gegen den Feind werfen und ihn mit der Lanze im Sturmangriff massakrieren.
Vor allem wenn der normale Angriff mit einem Schwert schon einen gleichzeitigen Angriff des Pferdes verhindern würde
Tut er aber nicht! - Im GEGENTEIL!
Geben Pferd und Reiter sich auch gegenseitig Überzahlbonus?
Ja.
